In this episode Karen reflects on College Kids and the hope as a baby boomer that they would be different than previous generations when it comes to discrimination and personal bias.
In This Episode You'll Learn
- » Self-awareness
- » Observation
- » Finding Your Voice
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Transcript
Meg Brunson
Hello FamilyPreneurs, Thank you so much for joining us for another episode. Today we are talking about racism and its roots in the family. I have an incredible guest with me here today. Karen Loomis, oracle and founder of No Moss Brands, is no stranger to the impact of racism, not only in her personal life, but also in her professional life. In the year 2000, Karen moved from Spokane, Washington to Phoenix, Arizona to find better opportunities, as promised, by the fifth largest city in the United States. Of course, I'm also from Phoenix, so we have that common bond - with only 2% of African-Americans in Spokane. It proved to be a challenging environment as it is in Phoenix, which only has 6% African-Americans. Karen has never shied away from the many barriers that racism presented. She has always felt her extensive education and professional experiences could overcome these often invisible challenges. Unfortunately, institutional racism has proven to be too big of a hurdle for one person to take on. So using No Moss Brands as the vehicle, Karen will use her voice to open the eyes of others who are willing to join all people of color on this journey to change.
Meg Brunson
Now, if you're here with us today, I know you are in. So let's dive into this conversation with Karen. Thank you so much for being with us today here. And we have been Facebook friends for ever and I'm so excited to finally have the opportunity to meet with you face to face, ear to ear, whatever, and and talk about this important topic and how it relates to us as as parents and just as humans who are - whether you're a parent or not, you're influencing the next generation with was just your your being.
Karen Loomis
Yeah, that the interesting thing about raceism that I've discovered in my long life is that not only do white people not want to talk about it, I really don't want to talk about it either. But what I've recognized is that as a result of 2020, it was, it became apparent that I could no longer just sit on the sidelines and let the George Floyd occurrences occur. And and the biggest hardest thing for me is all the chit chat that occurs around any type of an event like that. Like we always want to blame the Black person. Well, why didn't you respond accordingly when the officer said, do not do this? Why didn't you not do this? Well, there's a big difference between how Black people and white people are treated by law enforcement, and that's going to impact how you react. And that really is the biggest difference between a lot of what goes on between racism or any kind of -ism if we really want to go down that path. Is this your own personal experiences and your own personal experiences can be very limiting, but often people don't realize the limitations that you yourself have.
Karen Loomis
Many people who have never left the hometown that they were raised in, if you never leave your hometown, you're raised in, you're not aware of the differences that can occur. Just from going from one city, a big or small doesn't matter. Rural. Suburban. Doesn't matter because racism still finds its way.
Meg Brunson
Hmm. And one thing I feel like I've really learned in my research over the past couple of years is that we have to think, too. It's not just the personal experiences, because you also get feedback and lessons from your parents. And like when you think about some of the especially what we as white people were taught, like the racist era, Martin Luther King, like, you know what I mean? Like that's what we were taught that that was like the peak of racism. Or maybe that's not the right way to say it. Sorry, but I'm going to just keep rolling with it is that the people who were alive, like those people are still alive, they're the grandparents. They're the great grandparents. And the experiences that those people had have been passed down to their children. So like when we when we talk about the way that that Black people were were treated in the in the sixties. The impact of those actions is still relevant today. Because those people are still. Do you know what I mean?
Meg Brunson
Like that familial tie.
Karen Loomis
I think a good way to look at it is my mom is 82 years old. So that means that she was born she was born during the era or, you know, was alive during the era that you're talking about. And so her perspective and the things that she's experienced are completely different per se, then the things that I've experience. And but yet relative to what you're talking about, her experiences as a child or as a young adult impacted the decision she made for her family. Both of my parents both of my parents were born and raised in Sacramento, California. They could easily and when my dad chose to go into the military and after 20 years, they could easily have retired anywhere in the country. They could easily have gone to Sacramento. My parents chose Spokane, Washington. They'd never been there. They didn't they were not aware of the cultural or the lack of culture and the impact that it would have on us as children growing up, that we would never see anybody like ourselves.
Karen Loomis
I mean, in a class of my high school graduating class was probably 300 and I think there was probably four or five of us that were Black. There wasn't much Hispanic population back then. And so I grew up in a world where I almost never saw anybody like myself. Why? My family's family didn't live in Spokane, Washington. Hardly ever came up there. Now, had my parents chose to raise us in Sacramento, where all the family is? We had in the interaction of all kinds of Black individuals that are family and non family. We didn't have that in Spokane. I had to learn how to navigate this world, this white world that we live in. And I also had to learn, here's the most important thing I think I can share for people who have not had the experience of being a person of color is that if I make a claim that there might be racism involved in anything, I become the outcast. I become the one. Well, why are you trying to play the victim?
Karen Loomis
There's no racism there. I mean, and this hasn't changed at all. So one of the things that I started doing different as of this year is I started teaching college students. And we have this belief system that this new generation is much more open. I'm not finding that. There is a particular segment in the curriculum of this particular- one of the classes that I'm teaching that is all about diversity and cultural awareness in advertising. Now, these kids are in their 20s. They're 19,18. Most of them are junior or senior. So, you know, you figure 19, 21, 22, maybe at the most. You know, so this is that new generation we're talking about. And so this last topic that we talked about was diversity and culture awareness. So of course, I'm a numbers gal. Part of the marketing background that I have is that you always have numbers to support any kind of statement that you're making so that you it becomes fact and not just fiction. And what I discovered was, is they're receptive to the information.
Karen Loomis
But when it gets in their head and they start reflecting on that information, I find they're no different than the kids that I went to school with, the kids that the generation below went to, that they're the same. They have the same belief system. Why? Because their family is an important part of their what we call the intersectional lens, which is intersectional lens can be your community, your education, ethnicity, race, all of these things that impact how you see the world. And right now, their world is very limited, not only because they haven't experienced much, because they're college students, but also because COVID hit. And so for these kids, their experience at college is probably going to be some of their first experiences in a more. I say this loosely in a more diverse city. Phoenix, Arizona, many of them are not from Phoenix, Arizona. So some of the essays and I thought this was really telling. The people of color.
Karen Loomis
So there are probably a handful, more Hispanics. It's mostly Hispanics that I have in the class that are people of color, not hardly any African-Americans whatsoever, but the handful of Hispanics in the class that when they were writing, they said that one of their fears when they came to Grand Canyon University was the lack of diversity. But when you ask the white kids from the Midwest what they their concerns were about going to Grand Canyon University. It was the diversity. Well, it can't be both people. It can't be both, but it can be that that those perceptions are part of their parents perceptions because their parents have such a strong impact on them that until a kid is out of college and living on his own, which in your late twenties, they haven't. Walked away from their parents' value system yet. So let's talk about what happened over the news just over the weekend with the Buffalo incident. Total hate crime. 18.
Meg Brunson
Yeah.
Karen Loomis
Where do we start? Where does this come from? It can't be, he fell into the wrong crowd. It's got to be some pieces in his family. And even if it's not just his parents, it's those. It's the circles and the organizations that children are around that helped to develop those views. And until this kid is- he's got ten more years before he starts to develop his own independent thoughts and really haven't yet understanding and not being a sheep. So instead, this is what we have as a country. Is this not understanding racism and not understanding that you don't have to be a racist to be discriminatory. You. There's so many people that are. What's the word I'm looking for? Implicit in racism and don't even know it. Don't even realize it. And those are just some of the biases. And we often think of biases. You know, if I say that, oh, you're biased, you're probably not going to react the same as if I said, what a racist.
Karen Loomis
Right? So but what often gets lost in this conversation is, there's a spectrum from racist. From bias, discrimination. Prejudice. A long line. But I'll tell you what, the minute I bring up anybody, anything about racism. Oh, are you sure? How do you know? You can't be right. Why do you always want to play the victim? Not playing the victim? Just telling you how it is. If you don't want to hear it, that's up to you. But we're going to continue to live the same world. I don't think that this world that we live in. Has significantly evolved, and I didn't realize that until 2020.
Meg Brunson
Oh, man, there's so much to think about and chew on and digest. And I know that I am. I'm in that group that feels like that feels hope in our next generation. Right. And I. I feel like the next generation there is always. Is always better. I don't know a different word, but it's always better, right? They always are making that like progressive movement forward rather than backwards. But then something like this year where, you know, Roe versus Wade is being challenged and it's not like necessarily a racial issue, it has racial implications. But the fact that that that is what it is. And the Supreme Court and and, like you said, bringing bringing up the situation in Buffalo and even talking about that made me think about Rittenhouse and the situation in Minnesota, where it's like we we can't have this like blind hope on the next generation. Because it's not just going to happen on its own. We have...
Karen Loomis
Praying isn't going to change this. I'm I. I don't I don't wanna be intimidate or piss off those of you who really have these religious beliefs. But praying is not going to change the country.
Meg Brunson
Thoughts and prayers.
Karen Loomis
And loving thy neighbor. I remember seeing this come up over in the 2020 when conversations. There was a lot of conversations in social media and I might make a comment on someone, on someone's comment on someone's post and they might say, Well, shouldn't we all just love our neighbor? And I say, Well, what if my neighbors are racist? Am I supposed to love him, too? So that love thy neighbor means you're just going to ignore all the terrible things about them. Or are you going to say, yeah, but he's still a good guy? No. He or she is not. Truthfully, Meg, I think this is a- we're in a major shift right now. And I don't think that white women realize the power that you have as white women to change things you don't like. Right now, white women make less money than white males, and that always impacts your voice. One of the things I teach the college students is to have a voice and how to use your voice.
Karen Loomis
And I used, you know, when I was younger and didn't quite have the ability to do it in a nice way compared to now, where I tried to be a little bit more politically correct. But the fact of the matter is, when it comes to racism, I don't want to have to be nice about this because I don't want to have to worry about whether I've hurt your feelings. Really. I hurt your feelings because I accuse someone else of racism because you refuse to believe that racism exists. And these college students aren't any different. They are not. They don't- they're they haven't lived enough. And that's putting a lot of hope on a young generation who can barely handle COVID. These kids are not prepared for life. And maybe if I had seen college kids prior to COVID, I might have had a different thought process on it. But the kids that I'm seeing right now are really- took a step back because of COVID and because during that time when those first two years of college, when they should be, you know, learning what it means to live on your own, you know, learning what it means to make your own decisions and not to have somebody there around you.
Karen Loomis
This is when they're learning who they really are. And they ended up being going, having to go back to their parents house, you know, and all the things that come up with COVID and all other things that happened with racism with George Floyd. And, you know, we can name a zillion different instances that have happened, and yet nobody wants to call it what it is. Why are we so afraid to call racism, racism? You know you- you are a bad person if you believe that you're better than somebody else just based on skin color. You are a bad person if you think you're better than somebody else because you're thin and they're not. You aren't a better person because you think that your sexual orientation is better than theirs. But yet, this is the country we live in. And some reason we in the United States think that we are the top dog. Oh, we are not. And that ego, that narcissistic belief system, is taking us backwards instead of forward.
Karen Loomis
And the fact that we had to go through four years of Trump, don't even get me started on that. I mean, that day of that election when he won, I literally walked around that day like a zombie because I knew exactly what we were going to deal with for four years. And we did.
Meg Brunson
And you were right.
Karen Loomis
And I have I have never fought my own my own self so much because it was just so hard to take to watch somebody undo our country. Now, we already had problems, to think that we didn't have problems. Here's a perfect example. My parents bought their first house in 1972, I believe, which the only reason they were able to buy a house is because of a law that changed. That allowed. Black people to buy houses. Military people are mostly Black people. At the time, they couldn't buy houses. There was there was a law that came in that helped, if not for that law, my parents, wouldn't have bought a house. My mom still lives in that house today. That would never have happened if we as a country hadn't put down some kind of law in place. And it's sad that we have to have laws. But if we didn't have the laws we do today, we'd be even worse off than we are. But this comes down to individuals. I mean, individuals aren't going to change it.
Karen Loomis
But individuals have to band together and be something greater than themselves as an individual. And, you know, if people can band together to, you know, be part of racist groups, then why can we not band together to be anti-racist? And being antiracist doesn't mean you just turn your nose and walk away. It means you have a voice and you stand up for your Black friend. And you understand when your Black friend says, these are problems. But if you want to deny, then you haven't lived long enough to understand that you have some bias and you need to look at your own intersectional lens. Because that intersectional lens, your experiences as we started this conversation out, get out of your neighborhood, go try something else, you know, be uncomfortable. I grew up in a land of 2% like we were talking about when I moved here and started to work in this world. I got used to having people of color around me, but there was a board that I was on that it was completely Black people and I was out.
Karen Loomis
I was not comfortable because that was not an experience that I had ever had before. So I get it. But it wasn't because I was in fear. It was just it was an experience that I had never had before. And that's the same thing you have to look at. You have to look at yourself and say, is this is this just my own limitations that are not allowing me to see people for who they are? And those people who are busy saying that we don't have institutional racism. I don't understand how you can ignore the numbers. I mean, there are so many Black babies dying at birth. Why? In the U.S.? There's black mothers that Serena Williams, one of the- she has money. She has fame. She almost died. She had to stand up for herself when she's sick or she might have died. Yes. White people. This happens to you, too. This is not isolated. But when the numbers show, it happens more to a segment of the population than it does to another.
Karen Loomis
You can't ignore that.
Meg Brunson
And you've I mean, you're hitting the nail on the head. I, I you know what I mean? I agree with everything you say. For those of us like me who are listening and nodding their heads and knowing that they. That there's more that they should be doing. Do you have recommendations? Like what do you say to the white person that wants to be anti-racist? And doesn't know what the next step is they should take.
Karen Loomis
Don't be afraid of what you're- if you are afraid what your friends are going to say. You'll never change. You can't change if you're worried about what other people are going to say. What you have to understand is, is that your country is going to be a better country if Black people have better economic gain in this country, have better generational wealth. I'm tired of white people blaming the Black population. Pick your own self up. We pick our ourself up. Listen, I have so much education. I am so educated and have so many experiences and I still can't overcome racism. I mean, this is about you as an individual. When you hear yourself or feel yourself getting tense about a situation that might have some racism in it. What are you going to do about it? You going to sit there? You might sit there a lot. You might have already caught yourself sitting there. Right. Are you going to say anything? Probably not. Are you going to say anything to the individual who was just discriminated against?
Karen Loomis
You could start there. You could start to say, I saw that. I saw that. I see you. I see what you have to deal with. Perfect example. When I was in my corporate career, I'm in a meeting after lunch with about probably ten executives. All men, all white men. Just want to point that out. And, you know, we're doing our business stuff. And at some point, you know, the CEO comes around to me, you know, as he's going around the table asking people what they think about whatever initiative and it gets to me. And he says, "What do you think, Blackie?" My initial response to that was nothing. Zero. I didn't respond. Because that's a learned behavior. I have learned to sit there and not make a stink in situations like that because what would have happened had I said something? So if I say that story to people who are in the room now, I guarantee you nine out of ten are going to deny that story even happened because they forgot all about it.
Karen Loomis
I didn't forget. I remember. I mean, and. And was he being racist? Probably not. He thought he was probably being funny. Well, it's not funny. It's not funny. All it does is make it okay. It's kind of like the Chris Rock, Will Smith thing. So now it's open. Open game on. Comedians, if they say something you don't like, you can do, you can use some kind of physical harm against them. So this is all about you yourself, figuring out who, how, what is your part going to be. And you may not know, but when the when the situation comes up and if you have a Black friend, here's an interesting story for you. Side note Most white Americans circle, social circle is 91% white. We can't learn anything. You can't learn anything about people of color if you are not close to them, because there's a lot of people that probably think that they are close to me, and don't really know me. I have a very small, short, very limited circle of people who really know the ins and outs of a lot of things like that about my personal life.
Karen Loomis
91%. So if 91% of your circle is like you. You don't get any diversity in your life, even if it isn't just skin color. You don't get to learn about new cultures, new traditions, new ways of doing things. You just keep doing things the same way. What a boring life to do things always the same way and to never experienced anything else. And that's the- I mean, you've got to start with your own circle. If you are serious about playing a part in changing the complexion of our country and how we treat people of color, then you yourself have to look within yourself. There is a great book.
Karen Loomis
It's one of those books that it taught me a lot about my own race because again, 2% only people that I knew that were black were the seven people. Six people in my family, there were seven of us. So I had to learn from others, right? So I had to learn that.
Karen Loomis
There's a couple some of these books I can't read, like The Color of Money, Black Banks and the Racial Wealth Gap. I got about a chapter into it and it was so hard to hear. And because when I start to play it back in my head, my own life, I realize all the things I was unaware of that are all reflected in racism, all the institutional racism. But the book that I was referencing and it is controversial, but I don't think it's controversial. I think it's controversial because people don't want to. People don't want to be told that what they might be doing is wrong.
Karen Loomis
White fragility. Why is it so hard for white people to talk about racism?
Meg Brunson
And she has a 2nd book out now that I haven't read yet, but I've heard the second book is really good too.
Karen Loomis
Yeah, she does. And she's white. And so she's writing about things that are going to be hard for you to hear and you're going to have to reflect on that. You know what? It was hard for me to hear all about our white history when I was kid growing up, and nobody talked about anything about Blacks other than that they were slaves. You know what? That was fun as a kid. So you can deal with reading a book, right? I mean, like, that's what it comes down to. Oh, we don't want to tell the real history because we don't want those kids to be uncomfortable. Oh, hell, no. You don't think I was uncomfortable? You don't think I was uncomfortable doing Huck Finn? That might be one of the most brutal books to read, but yet it was required reading. I mean, those are painful. And so, again, back to the fact that I say when this occurred, when I was called blackie and I didn't react, it's a learned behavior.
Karen Loomis
It doesn't mean that I'm not reacting inside. It just means I know that if I react, it's going to be worse than it was if I hadn't. And that's, what that tells me. There's a problem in this country. If, you know, like in the college, with the college kids we were talking about, you know, I try to give them some examples of things without getting into the racism because I don't want to turn it into a racism discussion because I know they'll clamp their ears shut. And, you know, I said, you're the perfect example. I said, don't try to. Don't ask a black person about their hair or, you know, your frickin business. Don't ask to touch it. Don't ask how they wash it. Don't ask if it's their own. I said, don't do any of that. And the kids ask, why is it so wrong? I said, Do people ask you, do people come up to you and try to pet you?
Karen Loomis
People you don't know, people in a rest stop in the middle of nowhere. I mean, it doesn't just happen to me. I said to him, I said, look it up on the Internet. It's a real thing that we as Black people, Black women mostly deal with so much crap about our hair because you guys don't know. Like I never once occurred to me to say to a white person, Can you wash that? How do you, how do you do that, or how long does that take? And you know what my answer is? Here's- I've learned things over years. My answer is "not that long," because if I answer in any kind of way, a different way, it just brings the next question in. "Oh, so how do you wash it then?" So my brother in law, who's white, gave me a nice little tip. He says, you say, "lather, rinse, repeat," because there are certain things you can say that won't piss people off.
Karen Loomis
But if I come off to people like, you know, get away from my hair, then I'm now the bitchy one. But yeah, you were the one that was trying to invade my personal space and didn't think anything of it. It's personal space. Why would I want you touching me, much less my hair? I don't. But yet, for some people, for white people, that's a thing. You know what? It's not my responsibility to explain to you how a Black person does their hair. It's not my responsibility to tell you how Black people feel about something. I'll tell you if I want. But it's not my responsibility. It's not my responsibility to guide you and educate you on what it is like to be Black. If you're my friend, you'll know.
Meg Brunson
And I can as as a mom to three white kids and a black kid. I can tell you, more hands have touched that black hair. Than any of their white hair. And I get like, I'm confused as a mom, I get the same questions. How do you? How do you? And part of me is like, I am figuring this out as I go because. There's a lot to learn. But I haven't called up my friends to ask. Like I'm- you can YouTube, but like there's ways that you can learn how to. If you really want to know, you can learn how to do it. But like I said, I can just I just want to collaborate that I've seen apples to apples. White girl. Black girl. The way that people. And it doesn't even matter if her hair is curly or straight. Like she'll straighten her hair and people still want to touch it. Like it's not even really-
Karen Loomis
We're not zoo animals here, you know. And when you treat us like that, it takes us. Takes us back. Do you know, I hate the word monkey. Hmm. Why might you think I hate the word monkey? Whenever I hear the word monkey, I'm like, oh, I hope in my head- I'm like, I'm hoping this doesn't turn into some kind of racial thing, because it could easily.
Meg Brunson
I mean, it did with Michelle Obama. There was- there were issues.
Karen Loomis
Absolutely. And I despise, you know, remember Curious George, that storyline, that story about Curious George, I remember as a kid- as a kid, I didn't understand why it was uncomfortable. Now that I'm an adult, I can go like, Oh, no wonder you were uncomfortable. It was uncomfortable. That's the stop. It happens so much that you just as a Black person or a Hispanic person, you're just I mean, it's depending on your day. Like I said to the college kids, depending on my day, I might answer in a way that might not cause trouble. But depending on my day and my mood, it might not come across as nice as it might otherwise. But why do I have to be nice when you're being rude? I mean, that's the other side of it. You can say, oh, my God, I love your hair. Thank you. I'm good with that. We don't need to go beyond that because you know what?
Karen Loomis
I don't know how this hair gets done. It's not my job. I pay someone to do it, which is another an answer, I guess, when someone says, well, how do you do that? And I say, I don't, I pay someone, just like you. Pay someone to do your hair. What is wrong with you. I mean, look, this is the stuff that seems really minor, but it is minor. It's the big stuff that nobody wants to pay attention to either.
Meg Brunson
Right. If we ignore the little stuff, we're also going to ignore the big stuff. We're not going to ever get to the root of the problems.
Karen Loomis
Yep. It's true.
Meg Brunson
Yeah. And so I think I think the biggest takeaway. A big takeaway is that we really need to. Listen. And believe. Right. Like listen and not not try to question or or not try to poke holes or not try to figure out other reasons. Right. Like we just need to listen. And then evaluate. Not not on the truth of what was said, but on what's inside, like the feelings that that leaves you with. And, and I think also trying to- like I know for me it's it's like I can. It's hard. Like I'm embarrassed about the journey I had to take. I'm embarrassed about the instances that, like, reflecting back on. I'm like, Oh, that was racist as hell. And I just told that joke thinking I was in the crowd. And you. And talk. Gosh.-
Karen Loomis
No, we have those moments even, even as Black people. You know, I'm not saying that just because you're a person of color, you don't have your own bias. We all have our own bias, but our own bias is based typically is based on actual experience. Some of these white people don't have the experience, so they're just making up shit. They're using what they see in the media and TV and entertainment as an indication- of everything. Like a Black guy should be able to wear a hoodie. And not be looked at it as though he's a thug. A black guy. A black kid. A black boy shouldn't have to worry about the police stalking him because they think he might be up to no good.
Meg Brunson
And I feel like that's not just boys. I think about that. My my oldest is almost 15 now. And I think about not only like, what is she wearing and she loves her some hoodies. It'll be like the middle of summer and she's in a hoodie and we're in like southern Calif. It's like 100 degrees. I mean, heck when we were in Phoenix and I'm like, girl, take the sweater off. But there's that other piece. You see a Black kid. You don't know if it's a boy or a girl because they're in a big hurry with a hoodie in the middle of summer. I'm like, You can't do that. You're making yourself a target. And it shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be that way.
Karen Loomis
Shouldn't be, then. I mean, there's so many things that my parents probably didn't teach us because they probably didn't want to make a point of it. You know, like I asked my brother, he's the only one of four. Four out of five of us. Who is the boy, and I ask him, did did you guys have the conversation about if you get pulled over, how you should act? And that would not have been a conversation that I'm- it never came my way. I don't recall that conversation, but it's an important conversation to have. You know, how do you have to act? But even if you act a certain way, it's. No, there's no. Likelihood that you're going to be come away alive any more or less than somebody else.
Meg Brunson
There's no good answer.
Karen Loomis
It's all- no.
Meg Brunson
Because we've seen instances where people do comply and they still-
Karen Loomis
Yeah. Many, many instances. Probably many, many more than we've even seen. And this is not about police. My dad was a police officer. This is not, he was military police, the worst kind. This is not about law enforcement. This- I you know, at law enforcement, it just shows you the implications of society as a whole. You know how we were raised, who you know, and then you get into that loyal blues boys club. You know, this is how we do it. You know, you're now in this club. You get to act like this because we're in this club and every industry has their own version of that, except that when you are service to others in the community, it's can be even more of a struggle.
Meg Brunson
And especially when there's that power dynamic. You know, like. I worked in- not as a as a cop, but like in security and and things like that. And there is there's a power dynamic like you. You. You know that you have more power than the civilian. Than the. Average person. And then combined with. The implicit biases combined with the institutional racism. It's a. You're setting everything up for. For. Failure for. Situations we keep seeing in the news and they keep happening. And jumping back to a conversation we had a little while ago. I also was thinking about all these, anti- critical race theory, people who don't even know what critical race theory is, but they're jumping on the bandwagon because they, you know, they want their kids, their white kids to be comfortable learning about history. And I'm like. I would rather have them be comfortable learning about history in school and then be comfortable because they're not hearing about, instances like Buffalo. I haven't told my kids yet about what happened in Buffalo.
Meg Brunson
That's home for us like. I want to be able to go shopping with my kids at the grocery store and not have them be scared. But yeah, I would rather have my kids be uncomfortable in school so that once they get out of school, nobody is shooting up grocery stores. Why can we not? Fix the issues.
Karen Loomis
Yeah, we've got we have got to decide what's important. And this country cannot be changed by the 12 - 13% of us who are African-American. It cannot. It will. And I say this to my college kids all the time. You are not going to be the minority or the majority come ten, 20 years down the road when you're in your career. And that's going to be a shift and that's going to be a shift that you're not going to be prepared for. Because I'm even seeing it when- there are a lot of the projects that the kids, you know, get to work on, they get to choose their target audience. And then I saw way too many mainstream target audiences last semester, and it's just because they don't think any different. They choose target audiences that are like them. And if you're only working with what you are, who you know, then you're never going to expand and be, you know, a much more creative person if you only work within your own little blinders and bias.
Karen Loomis
And that's what I hope to change with the kids.
Meg Brunson
And I think that that's a great point. And it's also I feel like a point where a lot of people get stuck on because they're a white person in a white circle and they know they need to diversify that, but they're not quite sure. Like, what's the first step to getting a Black friend? Do you- and it's not- I know that sounds minimizing, but like, how do you diversify your circle? How do you put yourself in situations where you're around more diverse people? And I think that's the tough part.
Karen Loomis
Sports. The reason I actually had black friends is because of sports. Right. There's always black people in sports, so that makes it super easy. You can move to a neighborhood, like I didn't do it on purpose. I will be the first to say. But this neighborhood that I live in, I am surrounded by people that look like me or are Hispanic. Would I have chosen that on purpose? No, but I sure as hell, after 12 years of being in this neighborhood, appreciate the fact that my neighbor next to me is African-American. He's married to a Hispanic gal. The neighbor kitty corner for me is also Black and she single, neighbor on the corner Hispanic. The only white person that's borders my my yard is the jerk neighbor who has called the police on me a many, many times. So what does that say? Right. I mean, like so the reality is, is that these are little instances I could probably name a zillion of those kinds of things that have happened that I just have forgotten, because there's I only remember the big ones.
Karen Loomis
But the fact of the matter is, to find people of color is not difficult, if you truly have a diverse interest yourself in life. If you only do, I go to work, I come home, I go to work, I come home. You know, I don't mean anybody different than the people that you work with. And the one thing I love and the reason why I've been in the academia for so long is because the beauty of college is you're put in a room with 30, 40, 50 kids that would never, ever be in the same room with you. And you get to hear things from these kids that you would never get to hear in a workplace, because workplaces are just a reflection of our society as a whole. But colleges have that unique and even even somewhat somewhat public schools, depending on where you're talking. But colleges really have that ability to be much more diverse than we give them credit and to have that impact on the kids. And it may be our only hope to changing their generational views that they grew up with.
Karen Loomis
But you're not going to change an 18 year old. Who is that- has that much hate in them as far as the kid in Buffalo. I mean, that's a lot of hate. That's a lot of hate and it. And I'm sure we'll learn more. I don't want to only blame the parents because parents are not, you know obviously the the kid up in, was it the kid in Minnesota the one that where's the kid where the the white kid that shot at the school and the parents are in jail as a result. That's a very rare occurrence where the where the kids, where the parents are actually kind of really taking, you know, legal action a result of what their child's doing. Most of the time, the parents are kind of clueless. And that's a whole different problem. You got to know what's going on with your kids. You can't just act like they're little cats coming and going. You know, they. They will. They'll surround themselves with the wrong people if you let them.
Karen Loomis
I mean, you got to be some guidance in. But you're you know, you're also a mentor and what they see in you is what they are going to mimic.
Meg Brunson
Yeah. I think, too, for those of us in the digital entrepreneurial world, the online entrepreneurs, one thing that I did a couple of years ago is, I love podcasts. But you have to- I've noticed as a white person who listens to white podcasters. The recommended podcasts are all people who look like those people. So you have to intentionally search out diverse podcasts, and once you've found one, it unlocks- and it lets you start listening to other voices. You can connect with those people on social media. Start following those people. Attend summits that those people speak in. Things like that has really helped me continue to diversify not only who I consider to be online friends. Recognizing that's different right from my actual life in real life type friends. But just being able to experience my network and that the voices that I listen to, because that's what you don't want to be in an echo chamber where you're only hearing voices that are like yours. You need to listen to other voices. But at the same time, you've got to be careful that you're not listening to the wrong voices. So what's that like? That there's an element of discernment, right? Because Black people are also not a monolith, so all Black people are not aligned. Like, I'm not trying to namedrop. I don't want to give anybody a reason to go search out certain people. But there are people you... But there are hugely, hugely problematic Black people, too. Like, it's just so it's like you've got to be able to have that discernment and continue to educate yourself and dig deeper and ask questions, but ask questions of yourself and not put that burden on other people.
Karen Loomis
But I think curiosity is so important in life in general. The more curious you are, the more you seek to learn. And if you're not curious, you don't seek to learn and you just want to stay where you're at. So curiosity, you know, I'm not opposed to, you know, my tight circle asking me questions, but they don't ask me questions like that. Right. Because we've spent decades together already, they don't need to ask me stuff like that. They already know where I stand on my views. I don't have a problem voicing my views. But, you know, there's a lot of Black people who don't want to voice their views because it's become such- it's it really does put you in a in a box in a corner, and it makes you and now I'm at the ripe old age of being the angry black woman, you know, which is a whole other topic in itself. And so, you know, I get it. I get why somebody my age might be angry by the time we get here.
Karen Loomis
I don't know. Maybe the fact that I make $0.63 on the dollar of every white man might be enough. I don't know. I could go on and on with stats like that. It's just ridiculous. Of course I'm going to be angry about it.
Meg Brunson
And the fact that nothing's changing.
Karen Loomis
Exactly. I mean, like, I truly think we've gone backwards. We've gone backwards, especially with Roe versus Wade.
Meg Brunson
Yeah. And that's I think that's the other thing that. Especially white people don't necessarily understand at face value is how harmful, how detrimental that is going to be for the Black community because there's already that that offset. Right. And like the. The white people, the people with wealth, which and I'm talking again, generational wealth, which is white people are the ones that are going to be able to like pick up from Mississippi and make the drive up to New York or whatever and get the care that they need. Like they're going to be able to figure things out. They're going to be okay. The people who aren't going to be okay is the people in those urban environments low income. Overwhelmingly Black, Hispanic or other people of color, indigenous, that they're not going to be ableto be able to figure this out any other way than. Then back alleys and really harmful and hurtful things. So even though like that is a right now, women, I feel like are rallying.
Meg Brunson
But it's not just a woman issue. Like, it's also hugely impactful in a negative way towards people of color.
Meg Brunson
I can see how we're on this track of actually going backwards. And I just wish there was a better answer, like a better, like that you could just give us the answer and then we could just do it and we would be on forward motion. You know, and unfortunately, I can't expect that out of you or anybody. Right. I think it's just an element of continuing to do the things that we've talked about to to be self-aware, to listen, to believe, to intervene whenever possible, even when it's uncomfortable. We have to get comfortable being uncomfortable because, you're going to be uncomfortable. And I think we haven't really talked about this, but there's an element of like not only finding your voice and standing up for what's right, but learning when to shut up and let somebody else take the lead.
Meg Brunson
That's one of the biggest things like I've learned. Like when we went to Black Lives Matter protests and things like that. And luckily, I never made any of those mistakes. You know, I learned about it before I went. But, like, you don't want to show up as a white person and save the Black Lives Matter protests. No, no, no. You fall behind, you shut up. And you let the Black people who've been fighting this fight for years, decades, whatever you let them lead and you you fall behind. And I think the biggest thing for me and feel free to to add more is it's just to stay in the fight, you know, to be here for the long term, not to give up and to just stay in the fight because there's always going to be something new to learn, something new to help with. And don't let it die down. You know, I feel like there was a point after George Floyd where things started to die down.
Meg Brunson
You know, it wasn't as trendy on social media anymore. And you go through that lull until something else happens. And now something else has happened in Buffalo. And there will be a rise. And I don't know if it'll be a month or a year, but there will be a fall. And until something else happens, there will be that comfort zone. And I think we need to make sure that we're charging through the comfort zones to keep the fight going.
Karen Loomis
Yeah, I totally agree. And and it's not easy what we're asking people to do. But but one of the points that I was trying to make is the fact that there's not enough Black people or people of color at especially African-Americans, to really be able to turn the tables by themselves. We really need and I'm going to say it, white women, you know, we need white women to band together to help all people of color, to help anybody who is impacted by an -ISM. And that could be sexism, racism, you know, sexual orientation-ism, you know, all of those kinds of things that we as this country feel like we have the right to tell other people what it is and how they can live their lives. But we also, you know, the other right that we have, as is individuals in this country, is not to have laws that are there to get in the way of us moving forward. Because for people like myself, we shouldn't have to be unicorns just to be great in this country, you know?
Karen Loomis
And that's really what it comes down to right now. As you know, I ask my my college kids, you know, have you ever had a black instructor or a black teacher or anything like that? And the majority of them they had not. So how can we have how can we have moved forward? How can we move the needle if here we are in 2022? And these kids have just you know, some of them have had, but most of them have not. And you can't expect that, you know, kids are going to just suddenly become super open at the age of 30. If we're not doing it when they're younger, they're not going to understand and be able to incorporate that in their lives as they get older.
Meg Brunson
And I think this may seem really small, but sometimes I think we need to take small steps, too. I think making sure that with your little kids here reading diverse books, you know, you're not just reading books with main characters that look like your kids and you're exposing the kids to diverse TV shows, you know, and things like that when we're going to like the really young ages and that which is kind of where I am, like, my youngest kiddo is six and we do live a life where we're not in the same place all the time. And so my husband and I have these discussions all the time is that, you know, when we're not around a lot of Black people, how do we. How do we keep these lessons fresh in their mind and how do we expose them to different cultures and things like that? And it's I'm not saying that this is like the best way to do it or this is the only way that you should do it. But I'm just saying at a minimum. Watch some shows. Watch TV.
Karen Loomis
Yeah. Well, and and you have to be a little careful because TV in the entertainment industry has done a great job of showing African-Americans only in a certain stereotypical way. And all that does is continue to support the belief systems that white people already have about. Yeah. If a black guy's got a hoodie on you should cross the street and, go the other way, you know? You know, all these kinds of things that that that are part of bias. You know, we've got to make we've got to make some changes. And and unfortunately, there's not enough motivated white people.
Meg Brunson
Well, I'm hoping that we will change that. You know, I that's that is an area where I'm hoping. You know, it aligns with my mission is that by talking about my missteps, the racist and I mean, I'm not repeating the racist jokes, but talking about the instances where I may have said a racist joke or or had that, you know, and then when I was called out, as I should have then had that like, but my baby is black, therefore I'm not racist when that's yeah. Not at all like that doesn't that's there's no connection there of truth but I've gone through those instances and I feel like especially when I look at some of my high school friends who are still who never, like we're saying, never left their area. I know that. Moving from Buffalo andn Rochester, New York to Washington, D.C.. And like inner city D.C.. Was an experience that helped me see. Diversity and like really see it. Not just. Experience it, be a part of it, you know.
Meg Brunson
And so I'm really hoping that by sharing those experiences. Other people will start to be like, oh, you know, there is something there. It's tough. It's not an easy. It's not an easy mission. This isn't easy work. But it's important. It's important for our kids.
Karen Loomis
And I, I tell my kids that that unfortunately, it's not going to change in my lifetime. You know, with knowing that I'm in my late fifties, I'm not going to see the change. I don't think my daughter is going to see the change. And she's in her late thirties. So somewhere along the line, the change has to start happening.
Meg Brunson
And it may take a couple of generations, but we have to be the people who. Not just- Who keep it in motion, who keep it moving forward, who don't allow regression and who just keep fighting. And I think that people who are listening to this podcast want to be there to.
Karen Loomis
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But you can't be afraid. You can't let fear hold you back. I think fear is what is keeping this country in a patriarchal white man type of society, out of fear.
Meg Brunson
Yeah.
Karen Loomis
There's so many great women, regardless of the color of their skin, that could be leading this country. And but but as a country, we're immature.
Meg Brunson
Yeah. I mean, you talked about fear. This happened recently to me. I was wearing a shirt that said 0% conservative. I had a mask on that said f- racism fully spelled out and my shopping bags are rainbow, like pride bags. So I was like. I was loud and proud going through the grocery store. And usually people, you know, they might you might catch a glance. But I triggered this guy, a white, white guy. My guess would be for 40s-50s. I didn't say a word to him, but he came up to me and started yelling at me about how he was 100% conservative. And he went on and on about his love for women. And in that moment, I was like....
Meg Brunson
It is funny now, but in that moment I had a man yelling at me in the middle of a grocery store. Yeah. And I was like, what is going to happen? Like, what should I. What should I do? I was alone, you know? So it's like you get that, like, I don't know why I say fight or flight. Cause fight was never like I was not. In hindsight, I wish I could have just been, like, all up in his face and and back at him. But I was terrified. I was terrified. But you know, I still got to I'm going to continue shopping with those rainbow bags and that mask is going to stay on my face when I'm out in public. You know, regulations and rules be damned. But. It's it's hard. And it's hard knowing in my privilege that if I just wore a different mask. Carried different shopping bags. Wore a different T-shirt. That wouldn't have happened but like that's privilege.
Karen Loomis
I Tell people all the time-
Meg Brunson
Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Karen Loomis
I can't change the color of my skin. You know, where people will say. We all have this conversation about the -0isms, per se. And, you know, talking about people who are upset with homosexual behavior and, you know, all of this that goes on in their heads and same sex this and all that. And and to me, I'm like, what difference does it make to you who somebody else does something with or doesn't do something with - it doesn't matter? But here's the difference. There is a difference between a being a person of color who's being discriminated against and a person who has a sexual orientation discrimination is. I can't hide my color of my skin. You can hide your you know, your sexual orientation. Should you have to? No, but you could. You could, but you shouldn't have to. And that's the difference in that= that's the discrimination is completely the same. Other than that, you could, if you chose to hide your orientation, which you should never have to.
Karen Loomis
And I just want to make that clear, because, you know, the minute I walk in the room, judgment has started. I'm 5'10", I'm not a tiny little girl. You know, so and I walk in proud as can be. And so that creates a lot of of a reaction out of people that I haven't even had a conversation with. And I know that. I know that the minute I walk in, I know that impacts the crowd. And the fact that I'm super confident doesn't help either. But the fact of the matter is not going to undo who I am. Just to make other people feel better about themselves. And I think that's a great takeaway.
Meg Brunson
Well, Karen, I feel like I could just keep talking to you for hours and hours and hours, and we could just keep this up. But I want to- I have to honor your time. We're already a little over, and the time of our listeners. Where can our listeners, our viewers, where can they connect with you? Learn more about you, learn more about your business.
Karen Loomis
They can always go to my website, which is NoMossBrands.com and that will take them to what I do for a living. But then I also have a podcast where I did a couple about seven episodes of a podcast with another group called Racism In Small Business and Arts. And there's a website for that too. So if you want to hear some conversations about White Fragility, the book we talked about that we talked about the the angry black woman. We talked about some of those kind of high reactionary topics back in 2020. So that was really what happened in 2020 when the George Floyd- when I felt like I needed to talk. And that's where that's where you'll find those podcasts. So those are really great places to connect, as well as social media, Facebook and Instagram. I have accounts there as well.
Meg Brunson
I will link to all of those in the show notes. I just because you mentioned your website, it reminded me how much I love. How you've set up your Web site. So I just I'm an arts person. I'm a creative, and I just I love it. So great job on the website. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being willing to have these difficult conversations. I appreciate you so much. I'm grateful to be connected with you on Facebook. And I'm very grateful that you agreed to be here with us today. So thank you so much.
Karen Loomis
And thank you, Meg, for being willing to take the lead on these conversations, because as we talked about, it's a tough place for for white individuals to take on because you are kind of, you know, do are you the head or are you the lead or do you just follow? And it can be a really a bit of a challenge, but I think doing something is better than not doing anything at all. So I appreciate you for that.
Meg Brunson
Thank you.
Karen Loomis
Thank you.
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Meet Karen Loomis
Karen Loomis, oracle and founder of No Moss Brands, is no stranger to the impact of racism; not only in her personal life, but professional life as well. In 2000, Karen moved from Spokane, Wa to Phoenix, AZ to find better opportunities as promised by the fifth largest city in the U.S. With only 2% African Americans, Spokane proved to be a challenging environment, as is Phoenix, with only 6% African Americans.
Karen has never shied away from the many barriers racism presented. She has always felt her extensive education and professional experiences could overcome these often invisible challenges. Unfortunately, institutional racism has proven to be too big of a hurdle for one person to take on. Using No Moss Brands as the vehicle Karen will use her voice to open the eyes of others who are willing to join all People of Color on this journey to change. You in!?
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