Today's guest helps entrepreneurs build real relationships in their subscriber's inbox, turning subscribers into true fans and brand evangelists. In her free time, you'll usually find her typing away furiously at her laptop writing e-mails, reading a book, or at the baseball field with her two boys. I'm excited to introduce you to digital marketing coach, Jennifer Wilson.
Transcript: Jen Wilson
[00:00:01.540] - Meg Brunson
Welcome to FamilyPreneur, the podcast for busy parents building profitable businesses. If we haven't met yet, I'm Meg Brunson and we are about to simplify business and marketing strategies because balance was never about spending equal time between your business and your family. Nope. You want to spend previously unimagined amounts of time making memories with your kids, and the only way that's going to happen is if we get your marketing under control. I want to take a minute to acknowledge that Black Lives Matter, that love is love, and that inclusivity is essential for success. So I welcome all colors, genders and cultures to join us for today's episode.
[00:00:49.940] - Meg Brunson
Today's guest helps entrepreneurs build real relationships and their subscriber's inbox, turning subscribers into true fans and brand evangelists. In her free time, you'll usually find her typing away furiously at her laptop, writing emails, reading a book or at the baseball field with her two boys. I'm excited to introduce you to digital marketing coach Jennifer Wilson. Thank you so much for being here today.
[00:01:15.200] - Jen Wilson
Oh, thanks. I'm super excited to be back. We talked before one of your summits, so I'm excited to be back.
[00:01:23.840] - Meg Brunson
Yes. Well you talked to us all about optins at the summit - lead magnets - optins/lead magnets about a year ago. So I'm excited to have you back and talk about emails which are connected, right? You get to opt in and then you follow up with with emails. So I'm excited to explore that with you. Before we jump in, let's talk a little bit about relationship marketing, kind of what it is and the benefits to using it.
[00:01:53.180] - Jen Wilson
So I'm just going to back up a little bit. So I am- I do have a corporate nine to five and in my corporate nine to five, I'm a business coach for insurance agents. And they talk a lot about building relationships like they're like that's the basis of our business is building relationships, but. What does that really mean? Do you know what I mean? Is it when they come in, we talk to them and we we make friends with them or what does that mean?
[00:02:22.700] - Jen Wilson
So I try to dial it back like relationship marketing, is... That's part of it. It is the talking to them and all of that. But relationship marketing is really putting- the easiest way to say it is. It's putting the customer first. It's it's a customer centric philosophy. Right. So. In a nutshell, that's what it is, not product centric, it's not it's not you centric as the business owner. It's not brand centric. Some some marketing strategies are branding, right?
[00:02:54.680] - Jen Wilson
But it's putting a customer at the focus. And the reason that that's important is because. Even though it's a longer play, it's a long game, it takes more time. The end result is that you have a longer term and long lasting relationship with that person who maybe doesn't just buy one product, but because of that ongoing relationship, you can sell to them again and again and again, which we all know is much- it's less- it's more inexpensive, right, to keep an existing customer than it is to go get a new customer every single time.
[00:03:33.710] - Jen Wilson
They're what- I think it's like 60 percent more likely to buy from you if they're already a customer versus trying to get somebody new in the door. Right. So that's why I like to say relationship marketing is really putting the customer at the forefront, whatever that means. Right. And so that's why I believe even in email marketing that can be done and that I believe that's the way that I teach it, is to build those relationships in the inbox.
[00:04:04.150] - Jen Wilson
So that doesn't mean just sending out emails all the time. It means having a customer centric focus in your emails. Does that make sense.
[00:04:13.580] - Meg Brunson
Yeah, and I love how you mentioned that it's not the quickest way. So let's talk a little bit about some of what we see in the marketplace right now. We see things about getting you're... Making your first thousand dollars or things that are quick, quick, quick and easy, easy, easy. And this takes longer. But like you said, it's it's. There's more potential for higher customer value because they're going to do more business with you and also feels... Better. It feels less slimy.
[00:04:52.540] - Jen Wilson
That is the key, right, because people are like, well, I want to sell, but I don't like selling because I feel icky. So if you think about building a real relationship and this is the key, it's not just a buzzword. Right? Like I'm doing relationship marketing. No, it's truly building a relationship. And so if you think about, if I have someone that I met and now I'm trying to become friends with them. Right.
[00:05:15.250] - Jen Wilson
So it takes time. Right. When you do- so, I use this example like years ago when that Roomba, it's that little automated vacuum, right? It came out and then I was like an early adopter and I was like, this is the best like four hundred dollars I've ever spent my entire life. And I tell everyone, everyone's like, you should go work for Roomba on commission because you like are like just loving it. But if I went and I told this friend that I have this Roomba is like the most amazing thing.
[00:05:49.480] - Jen Wilson
It's not salesy because I believe in it. And I have a relationship with this person and this person knows that I'm only going to tell them about stuff that I truly believe in. So when relationship marketing, it doesn't just mean, obviously, you believe in your product wholeheartedly. Right. So this is why you can recommend it, because you truly believe it can help your people. But if you're giving if you're talking to me about other offers, you're carefully curating it.
[00:06:13.780] - Jen Wilson
Right? You're not just throwing out anything where you think you can make a quick buck on it. And so that's where that sort of symbiotic relationship comes in, because now you are providing this value where if you're if you are telling your subscribers about an offer, they're like, oh, OK, Jen. She never sends me offers or she rarely sends me offers. Now, I know that this is going to be something really valuable. And so that takes out the icky factor.
[00:06:40.840] - Jen Wilson
It really does. So so you're completely right.
[00:06:45.280] - Meg Brunson
And there's so much good stuff that you just said right there. Like what you mentioned is- we can- you can use it for selling your own products. You can also use it for selling affiliate products, things that you sell somebody else's thing for them, and then you get a little kickback from it. And all of this is based on building that trust with people. So only promoting... And I love that. I feel like that's something that I've always tried to do. It seems so obvious, right?
[00:07:16.150] - Meg Brunson
Like why would you promote something you don't like? But people do it or they'll promote things that they don't really know if they like because it sounds like a good opportunity. But instead, you want to be really careful about what you're promoting because if you promote something. Bad, it's going to reflect back on you.
[00:07:36.900] - Jen Wilson
And that's what I would say is like protect your list and treat your lists like a really. So actually, that's one of the biggest things that I teach is, OK, when you approach your email list.
[00:07:49.190] - Jen Wilson
It becomes this big, scary thing for people, they're like, oh, my God, I have like a hundred people or have a thousand people on my list. I need to write to them all. And I don't know what to say. We need to think of that. If you think of it as one person and that one person, the lens I encourage people to look through is. Of a friend, of a friend. OK, if you if you approach that person like a friend of a friend, then everything becomes easier because you're not going to spam a friend of a friend with offers, you're not going to sell to them the minute you meet them.
[00:08:23.040] - Jen Wilson
Right. And and the reason I don't use the BFF analogy is that- you have this, like, really comfortable relationship with them, where sometimes there's no context. There is, things can be left off. And and so I think. To have that one step removed is useful in looking at your email list and how you approach them. And so if you look at it through that lens, everything to me becomes clearer. And you start treating your lists like this person that you you're like, I'm not.
[00:09:01.100] - Jen Wilson
So I want to give you an example. I was I was doing I was doing all these summits and stuff. Right. And which is great. And one of them I had seen. So I had just sent out an affiliate offer. And this offer is for a program. It's the only offer I sent. And it's for a program that I actually am in. I've taken the program. I'm actually an instructor on their campus. So I sent out an offer for this because I truly believe in it.
[00:09:31.130] - Jen Wilson
This is what the program that I learned from. And then I was doing this- I had just sent out an email and that I had done this summit and. It was my fault because I I saw that there were requirements in terms of sending out notices to your email lists about this summit, but what I miss, what I completely missed was that they had to be solo emails. They couldn't be mentioned somewhere in the email itself. And I was like. Oh, my God, I can't do that to my list because I just sent them an offer and I'm on this cadence with my list, like I'll send them two emails a month, and if I send them something in between, it's got to be for something.
[00:10:17.280] - Jen Wilson
And so I actually go back to the summit organizer and I said, this is completely my fault. I, I can't do it. I can't send my list this solo email just completely about this summit. And so I ended up working out something with her where I ended up actually paying her a little bit so that she could do some advertising that would kind of make up that thing. But my point is that that's how I would encourage you, obviously, to be more careful about looking at the requirements.
[00:10:49.950] - Jen Wilson
But but to really protect your list like it's it's not going to do that to them. I truly value them and treat them that way.
[00:11:00.210] - Meg Brunson
I love how you mentioned it being a friend of a friend. I don't think I've heard that before. I've always heard write it like you're speaking to a friend. But I like I feel like when you add that extra layer that one person removed it almost it strengthens the relationship marketing strategy because it's like you're and I don't know, I feel like referrals are another great way that you grow your list. Right. So when you're always in this mindset that everybody is coming to you off of a referral and you're working at generating more referrals and then you're speaking to somebody as if they're a new referral, it's like it becomes more personal.
[00:11:41.880] - Meg Brunson
Right. In addition to all of the other perks you mentioned. So I love I love that. I feel like people need to jot that down if they didn't already.
[00:11:50.130] - Jen Wilson
I think it just it just helps to make everything clearer because you run it through that lens. You're like, OK, if I had a friend of a friend, a friend of this person, would I send this to them? And that's what I tell people about. Like, you know, some people love the idea of the low ticket offer right off the bat. And I mean, it can work, right?
[00:12:11.100] - Jen Wilson
We know it can work. But for me, I'm like, if you have someone just coming into your world, I'm like, I mean, would you do that to a friend of a friend like you just meet them for coffee and you're like, hey, I'm selling this thing right. Now.
[00:12:25.650] - Meg Brunson
And I think for me, it helps me to actually, when you're doing like a friend of a friend, I can actually think of somebody like I can think of my initial friend. And maybe I'll pick somebody who I'm like, close with like we're friendly. But I also, like, look up to. That's right. So, like, I don't want them to think poorly of me and that person in mind. And now I'm speaking to a referral that she made to me. And it holds you to almost a higher level of...
[00:12:55.750] - Jen Wilson
You're still professional, you're still kind of- you know, you still- there's not that total familiarity between you, but yet you still- they're a connection. So you're not going to just go for broke on selling. So and that's where the 80/20 rule, I think that that that we were going to talk about comes in. Because people want to know how much to how much offers I can send. And I say use a friend of a friend lens.
[00:13:24.700] - Jen Wilson
But if not, I kind of use the 80 20 rule. That's like, you're just going to provide value. And value doesn't mean you have to do research and send all kinds of crazy tips. I mean, it could be support or entertainment, right? I mean, in in the form of an email 80 percent of the time, 20 percent of the time, you can seed your offer or talk about your offer or other offers as a guideline.
[00:13:47.920] - Meg Brunson
I love it. And it's exactly where my brain was going. I don't know if you noticed, I opened my mouth to talk. And then you answer the question. It was brilliant. I was like, OK, I'll just sit here and let you interview yourself. Funny. So 80 percent of the time providing value, and 20 percent of the time selling. And so here is where I'm going to make you be a mathematician. Right. We can think about that in terms of weeks. Right.
[00:14:16.180] - Meg Brunson
If we're looking it's like out of five weeks, one of those weeks your selling. The other four weeks, you're providing value, so if you think about it that way, you don't have to, like, mark it on your calendar. This is my selling week, but just kind of keep it in mind that you should only be selling about once every five weeks in order to maintain that balance. And I like that.
[00:14:39.880] - Meg Brunson
I love having numbers that we can use as guidelines.
[00:14:44.820] - Jen Wilson
I think it helps people.
[00:14:47.070] - Jen Wilson
Yeah. And I'm like, I'm not a numbers person, but I know a lot of people are. But the way I do it and I don't even know if it boils down to numbers, but like I don't sell at all, like I will not sell at all until I'm launching. Right. Then when I'm launching, I'm going to send you some emails about my thing. Right. And that could be the 20 percent. It's not maybe spread out over time, but it's more condensed.
[00:15:15.570] - Jen Wilson
But I don't sell any other time. So that's kind of how I that's how I do it.
[00:15:22.080] - Meg Brunson
And for me, I feel like I don't sell unless it makes sense. Like yes, if there's a launch. But like sometimes in my emails I'll take like a story or something like something that happened with my kids or on our travels. And then I relate in my email about how that made me think differently about business or some sort of thing. And often if it's tied to something that I have a product that supports. Then I'll mention but if it doesn't then it's just that like supportive/value email and always just having the option that people can email you for more information and then that allows you to continue that relationship building and or provide opportunities for them to learn more from you through selling your services coming from that place of service. So no, I love that.
[00:16:15.530] - Jen Wilson
I love how you mentioned telling a story, so stories are like this, a big deal now. And for good reason, I would say, because stories are the way that human beings connect with each other, right? It's one thing if I-because stories help people connect with you, which then in turn creates liking because you're familiar to them, they find things that are in common with you. They start to like you, which creates this whole relationship.
[00:16:49.180] - Jen Wilson
Right. And when people like you, they're more willing to buy from you because they have to know, like and trust you. Right. That whole like and trusting that you always talk about. But with stories, people remember it more. They're more memorable. So if I were to tell you, like, I had to train for this marathon, it was really hard. I mean, it was really difficult. It took a lot of time versus I tell you how I started off running down the street and I was sweating and I and I hurt my ankle.
[00:17:20.820] - Jen Wilson
And then I started crying and then I, you know, and then I had to go back in and my kids had to talk to me about, mom, you got to keep going. It just it just draws people in to story. I think the trick is. The trick is knowing how to write about that story, so only the relevant parts are in the email because sometimes you talk, and I work on this with people. Like I tell them, OK, here's your- you need to tell an origin story about yourself. People need to know about you. And then it's three pages long.
[00:17:49.970] - Jen Wilson
Well you're not going to send that in an email. Right. So the trick is finding, you know, what contributes to whatever point that you're trying to make. But I completely agree that- and you don't have to have a story for every single email because they're getting like, oh, my God, I've got to tell a story. I've got to find something and you have to tell a story.
[00:18:09.590] - Jen Wilson
But if you have one, like you said, something happened the other day with your kids and then got connected to to a lesson that you were thinking about and to your product, then that's a perfect opportunity to tell it.
[00:18:23.000] - Meg Brunson
And I feel totally called out because I am so chatty. And that's one of my biggest struggles when it comes to telling stories, is I want you to know all the details of every single thing that I remember happening down to, like the color of the shoes that the other person was wearing or whatever. So that is something I have definitely struggled with. Scale it back, scale it back, make it simple, keep it simple and get your point across. And that's it.
[00:18:50.180] - Jen Wilson
And I don't mean to say because and this is another thing that people say, they're like, well, how long should my emails be, right? And I can never- the thing is, I can't tell you. I mean, some people say people don't have an attention span. You can only send short. But that is not true. That is not true. And it depends on your audience. And that's the thing.
[00:19:10.520] - Jen Wilson
Right. So, like for you Meg, people love hearing all those details because they know you and they love you like who you are. That's cool, right? That's totally cool. They're going to open it. They're going to read it. They know it's from you. They know they're going to be in for this story and they love it. So I think it's totally fine. It's just finding that sort of like where that sweet spot with your audience is.
[00:19:33.500] - Jen Wilson
So, yeah, totally cool.
[00:19:39.500] - Meg Brunson
And I feel like it's one of those things where, like my husband, if he's listening right now on the other side of the door, he's like, yup, she'll just talk, her stories last forever. With my kids, too. So that poor guy, he never gets to tell stories because we tell all the stories.
[00:19:56.360] - Jen Wilson
[00:19:58.470] - Meg Brunson
I also wanted to touch on reengaging old lists. So I know so many people, so many people who have started building an email list.
[00:20:09.170] - Meg Brunson
Again, I've got clients who come to me and they're like, yeah, there's like two hundred, three hundred people on my list. I've never emailed them. Oh, you've never emailed them. So what happens if you're listening? If you're in listening right now and you're like, I have a list, but either I've never emailed them or I haven'y email them in the past, fill in the blank month/quarter/year, what do we do?
[00:20:35.630] - Meg Brunson
Is that list lost? Is that do we revive them somehow? What are your suggestions?
[00:20:43.280] - Jen Wilson
I want to preface it by saying that this is a huge mindset issue for a lot of people, right? You did the work on building the list. It's not a waste. So how do you reengage without feeling bad? And also, the biggest thing is, is that it's in your mind, which is keeping you from sending an email in the first place, which is why it got to six months or a year or whatever it is that you've sent.
[00:21:12.110] - Jen Wilson
So you've got to get over that, right. That's the first thing. But the second thing is it's really there's really three options. You can, number one, continue doing what you're doing. You're never going to piss off anybody. It's just they're just going to be in your service provider. Nothing, right. You can then write an email like nothing ever happened. They're going to be like, who the heck are you? Like, I don't even remember who you are and why I'm on your list. Unsubscribe. Or the third option is, why don't you offer them a little freebie or gift? Tell them, hey, look, this is this is why you are on my list. This is what I do. This is why you should be interested. Here's something free, something really super cool that you might be interested in and then go from there. And I would ask people if they're no longer interested to hit the unsubscribe button. And that's OK, because then, you know, your list is going to be a smaller, more engaged list for what you're going to be doing.
[00:22:10.490] - Jen Wilson
So, I mean, to me, I mean, I know it's like, yeah, it sounds simple and it's maybe really not, but figure out something that you can offer to them and just send this this short. Hey, and in this email, maybe you don't want to tell a long story. Maybe you just want to get to the point and say, hey, short bulleted thing in the beginning saying this is why you're on my list, this is what I do.
[00:22:35.780] - Jen Wilson
This is super cool. This is why you should still be interested in here's a free gift for you. You're no longer interested. Unsubscribe and see what happens from there. That that's how I, I suggest people handle that.
[00:22:48.470] - Meg Brunson
I like that, and I think for me, my first thought is that for that free gift, obviously it's going to depend what type of business you're in, but to make it something easy for them. So like not like a coupon or a discount for a strategy session that's selling. Right. Like that selling. But like actually something a PDF, an e-book, a checklist, something that's going to get them again. I'm just trying to think of what I've heard people suggest as a freebie.
[00:23:23.480] - Meg Brunson
If it requires them to pay anything, it's not a freebie. No, that's a sales offer. So make sure it's something that's free value. And I love the thought of - I love that you mentioned just being honest to in the message. Hey, here's how I got your email. You gave it to me- or here's why you originally gave me your email. You might not remember because it's been a year. Right.
[00:23:47.180] - Meg Brunson
And but now I'm back. Here's what I do. And here's a gift to thank you, maybe, for sticking with me and being patient and and probably letting them know what to expect to, right. I am planning to email. I think you said you email like twice a month or something like that.
[00:24:07.190] - Jen Wilson
Right. I think you bring up such an important point that in my mind I was like, yeah, but maybe people didn't realize it. It needs to be something quick and easy. Absolutely. It can't be. It has to be. When you think about when you offer a freebie, it has to be something super low risk on the front end. Right. Because you're reengaging. It's almost like you're getting them to opt in again. Right.
[00:24:33.110] - Jen Wilson
So it can be something that's too much commitment for them. So it's got to be something super low risk, super simple on the front end. And yes, thank them for being there. Thank them for sticking with you all along, like you said. And it would be great if you know and if you're going to hold yourself to sending an email X amount of time, put that in the email or just say "I'm going to stay in contact with you on a regular basis to give you" this kind of value.
[00:25:02.960] - Jen Wilson
So to give you an example, I just did this not on a disengaged or cold list, but it was on a list of people that for a summit that I did and they give you all of the email addresses, not just people that opt into your stuff and they give you all the email addresses. So what I did was I said, hey. Did three bullets, I said, you got my- I got your email from, because you attended the summit.
[00:25:32.420] - Jen Wilson
This is what I do. This is how I help people. This is why you should care. And I said, this is what I'm going to do for you. And I put in a tip. I said, hey, this is the kind of emails that I typically send to my people. I put in marketing tip number one, and I put that in at the end. I said, hey, if you like this, stick around.
[00:25:51.590] - Jen Wilson
I'm going to give you more of this. I don't give them a free gift. Right. But I just said this is what to expect from me. And if not, hit the unsubscribe button below, because not all those people are going to be interested in what I have to say. So kind of following that same thing, but offer them something.
[00:26:08.840] - Meg Brunson
So I took, two big takeaways. So number one, quality over quantity. I see so many people that are like. I mean, even you're talking about summits, I've seen summit hosts who say they only want to consider speakers who have a list of five thousand plus people. I hate that stuff. I hate that. You'll never get it from me. I believe quality is far more important than quantity. If you have one hundred people who are highly engaged and they love you, that's so much more important to me than the fact that you managed to get five thousand people's email addresses, if they're like not quality. So that's number one.
[00:26:52.840] - Meg Brunson
And then talking about the optins again, quick wins, probably not like a big training, right. Again, going back to PDFs. I'm just processing going back to PDFs or something quick and easy, because, again, I know a lot of people who are like, here's a 40 minute training. Not not here. Those are harder to get people to commit to because it's a big time commitment. Quick and easy. Yeah.
[00:27:19.900] - Jen Wilson
They have to, yeah, go ahead.
[00:27:22.570] - Meg Brunson
I don't want to cut you off.
[00:27:23.710] - Jen Wilson
No, I don't remember what I was going to say. I was just going to say, yes, I agree.
[00:27:29.080] - Meg Brunson
Put you on the spot to come up with something else? Well, this has been great. I'd love if you would let our viewers and listeners know where they can connect with you, learn more about you, hop on that list, all those good things.
[00:27:45.790] - Jen Wilson
So I, I have this I have a really good freebie that people love and it's actually one hundred- over one hundred twenty five lead magnet ideas going back to the whole lead magnet idea of getting people into your world. Right. Because you want to prequalified them and sort of get the right people on your list. And then so you have a more engaged list to start off with, right. To nurture over time. And that they can get that at my website.
[00:28:15.700] - Jen Wilson
JenWilsonMarketing.com/leadmagnet. And so they can optin for that there. Then they can find me on Instagram @JenWilson.Marketing that's probably the best place to find me.
[00:28:28.210] - Meg Brunson
Awesome. Great. Well, thank you so much for taking time to be with us here today. You were flexible for me, too, and so I really appreciate it. And I thank you so much for sharing all of your value with us again.
[00:28:43.900] - Jen Wilson
Oh, yeah. It was great being here. Thanks so much, Meg.
[00:28:48.460] - Meg Brunson
That's it for this episode of FamilyPreneur. You'll find all the links mentioned and the show notes at MegBrunson.com/podcast. Until next time, I'll see you over in the FamilyPreneur community.
[00:29:02.390] - Meg Brunson
Bye for now.
In This Episode You'll Learn
- Relationship marketing–what it is, benefits, how to use it in e-mail marketing, and how it can seem counter-intuitive to what you might think (and also what is being taught in the marketplace right now).
- How to re-engage with your audience if you've not e-mailed them in a while.
- Use the 80/20 rule when emailing your subscribers (value/selling)
Listen and Subscribe Now
Meet Jennifer Wilson
Jen is a Digital Marketing Coach that helps entrepreneurs write sticky e-mails that get opened, read, and clicked. She helps entrepreneurs build real relationships in their subscriber's inbox, turning subscribers into true fans and brand evangelists! In her free time, you'll usually find her typing away furiously at her laptop writing e-mails, reading a book, or at the baseball field with her two boys.